I have not found electricity mentioned anywhere in the Bible.
Another thought that I would like to present, you stated that you would not go to any church where 25+ was in charge. Could I ask why? What would bring you to that conclusion?
1:58 PM, January 12, 2007
Tim said...
bepatient said...
I believe that God has already given us an outline of what the church should be.
Reply:
You are absolutely correct and it is by the Authority of Scripture that I have become involved with the desire to magnify that point.
The church is currently operated under business principles that would exist in a closely held privately owned corporation. It needs to operate in conjunction with Biblical principles.
25+ list includes many solid Biblical principles. It also magnifies the practices that are currently in place that are not based upon Biblical principles.
If nothing else this list should serve the purpose of bringing us together in the acknowledgement that there is a problem. It should also give us the ability to focus in and define a solution.
The bottom line would be this, either the ideas in the list are Biblical or they are not. If they are Biblical then it should be the goal of every church member to strive to abide in the Biblical principles represented. If they are not, then we should be able to debate and discuss them and revise or remove them as necessary.
Refusing to discuss a solution would indicate in my mind that you are of the opinion that there are no problems. Only you could offer clarification on that and I would sincerely invite your opinions.
2:23 PM, January 12, 2007
Tim said...
bepatient,
So you are saying that under the heading;
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
You would like to have all seven items removed. But I would surely expect that you would agree that the item itself is Biblical in nature.
Items II and III do not directly address any specifics to Steve Gaines and would be ok in your opinion.
II. Congregational Church governance: III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
2:36 PM, January 12, 2007
Tim said...
memphis,
No one is asking for your unconditional agreement. It is a solution that has been presented to address the problems that are apparant at Bellevue. To say that you won't even discuss a solution would indicate that you are not interested in resolve.
2:41 PM, January 12, 2007
Tim said...
Memphis, bepatient, heardenuf, 4545,
These are the three points:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation: II. Congregational Church governance: III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
Lets start with just those three, which of these need to be revised, debated or removed.
2:48 PM, January 12, 2007
Tim said...
bepatient,
So the there are a few items under the Congregational Governance that you believe should be addressed and they are;
Conflict of interest statements.
Review of the bylaws. Other things fall under this like the business meeting thing.
Resolve will ultimately be based on agreement and result in unity or Resolve will ultimately be based in failure to discuss openly and honestly and result in division.
2:55 PM, January 12, 2007
Tim said...
Bepatient said...
tim- I would suggest if you are truly interested in working on a list- why do we start another blog specifically for that. I don't think this is something we can sit here and do in a day amidst all the other arguments. We should take it one item at a time and pray and back each thing with scripture.
Reply:
I agree completely that it cannot be done in a day. This forum however is the place to formulate solutions. The arguments are over problems, solutions will far outweigh arguments. Certainly I would expect that some things would take a great deal of prayer other things I believe we could readily be in agreement on.
So far I believe that we have reached an agreement on theses two items
I. Leadership Accountability to the Congregation:
II. Congregational Church Governance:
It would be my opinon that under item I. it would be appropriate to define the leadership postions specifically.
A. Pastoral Staff B. Ministerial Staff c. Staff Employees D. Deacon Body E. Church Committees F. Church Membership
Perhaps I have left something out or something needs to be changed, but it seems to me that since each office is different that each responsibilities should be defined.
Thoughts?
3:16 PM, January 12, 2007
Tim said...
It is also just an opinion but I believe that there are two items under III. that need to be kept somewhere.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members: 1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. 2. The end of signing non-disclosure statements and release of any staff that is currently bound by a prior non-disclosure agreement.
3:21 PM, January 12, 2007
Tim said...
Reply: I saw the post. Unfortunately, concerning a business meeting we have already been told, "It ain't gonna happen". With that in mind we should still be working toward mutually agreeable solutions.
There are similarities to 25+ list, but I would appreciate cooperation from all and as much agreement as possible. This is what we have agreed thus far. I would hope that this could be developed much further.
I. Leadership Accountability to the Congregation: A. Pastoral Staff B. Ministerial Staff C. Staff Employees D. Deacon Body E. Church Committees F. Church Membership II. Congregational Church Governance:
It would certainly seem to make more sense to work toward resolve than foster divisions.
1 comment:
Tim said...
bepatient,
Just a random thought.
I have not found electricity mentioned anywhere in the Bible.
Another thought that I would like to present, you stated that you would not go to any church where 25+ was in charge. Could I ask why?
What would bring you to that conclusion?
1:58 PM, January 12, 2007
Tim said...
bepatient said...
I believe that God has already given us an outline of what the church should be.
Reply:
You are absolutely correct and it is by the Authority of Scripture that I have become involved with the desire to magnify that point.
The church is currently operated under business principles that would exist in a closely held privately owned corporation. It needs to operate in conjunction with Biblical principles.
25+ list includes many solid Biblical principles. It also magnifies the practices that are currently in place that are not based upon Biblical principles.
If nothing else this list should serve the purpose of bringing us together in the acknowledgement that there is a problem. It should also give us the ability to focus in and define a solution.
The bottom line would be this, either the ideas in the list are Biblical or they are not. If they are Biblical then it should be the goal of every church member to strive to abide in the Biblical principles represented. If they are not, then we should be able to debate and discuss them and revise or remove them as necessary.
Refusing to discuss a solution would indicate in my mind that you are of the opinion that there are no problems. Only you could offer clarification on that and I would sincerely invite your opinions.
2:23 PM, January 12, 2007
Tim said...
bepatient,
So you are saying that under the heading;
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
You would like to have all seven items removed. But I would surely expect that you would agree that the item itself is Biblical in nature.
Items II and III do not directly address any specifics to Steve Gaines and would be ok in your opinion.
II. Congregational Church governance:
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
2:36 PM, January 12, 2007
Tim said...
memphis,
No one is asking for your unconditional agreement. It is a solution that has been presented to address the problems that are apparant at Bellevue. To say that you won't even discuss a solution would indicate that you are not interested in resolve.
2:41 PM, January 12, 2007
Tim said...
Memphis, bepatient, heardenuf, 4545,
These are the three points:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
II. Congregational Church governance:
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
Lets start with just those three, which of these need to be revised, debated or removed.
2:48 PM, January 12, 2007
Tim said...
bepatient,
So the there are a few items under the Congregational Governance that you believe should be addressed and they are;
Conflict of interest statements.
Review of the bylaws. Other things fall under this like the business meeting thing.
Resolve will ultimately be based on agreement and result in unity or Resolve will ultimately be based in failure to discuss openly and honestly and result in division.
2:55 PM, January 12, 2007
Tim said...
Bepatient said...
tim- I would suggest if you are truly interested in working on a list- why do we start another blog specifically for that. I don't think this is something we can sit here and do in a day amidst all the other arguments. We should take it one item at a time and pray and back each thing with scripture.
Reply:
I agree completely that it cannot be done in a day. This forum however is the place to formulate solutions. The arguments are over problems, solutions will far outweigh arguments. Certainly I would expect that some things would take a great deal of prayer other things I believe we could readily be in agreement on.
So far I believe that we have reached an agreement on theses two items
I. Leadership Accountability to the Congregation:
II. Congregational Church Governance:
It would be my opinon that under item I. it would be appropriate to define the leadership postions specifically.
A. Pastoral Staff
B. Ministerial Staff
c. Staff Employees
D. Deacon Body
E. Church Committees
F. Church Membership
Perhaps I have left something out or something needs to be changed, but it seems to me that since each office is different that each responsibilities should be defined.
Thoughts?
3:16 PM, January 12, 2007
Tim said...
It is also just an opinion but I believe that there are two items under III. that need to be kept somewhere.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of signing non-disclosure statements and release of any staff that is currently bound by a prior non-disclosure agreement.
3:21 PM, January 12, 2007
Tim said...
Reply:
I saw the post. Unfortunately, concerning a business meeting we have already been told, "It ain't gonna happen". With that in mind we should still be working toward mutually agreeable solutions.
There are similarities to 25+ list, but I would appreciate cooperation from all and as much agreement as possible. This is what we have agreed thus far. I would hope that this could be developed much further.
I. Leadership Accountability to the Congregation:
A. Pastoral Staff
B. Ministerial Staff
C. Staff Employees
D. Deacon Body
E. Church Committees
F. Church Membership
II. Congregational Church Governance:
It would certainly seem to make more sense to work toward resolve than foster divisions.
5:44 PM, January 12, 2007
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