This blank sheet of paper reserved for BePatient from NBBCOF.
Any other poster's comments will be deleted.
Friday, January 12, 2007
Tim
This blank sheet of paper reserved for Tim from NBBCOF.
Any other poster's comments will be deleted.
Any other poster's comments will be deleted.
Tim & Be Patient
- This blank sheet of paper is reserved for both Tim and BePatient from NBBCOF.
Any other posters' comments will be deleted.
- Bepatient said...
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socwork-
Nothing NEEDS to be inflammatory. If they are factual they should be able to stand on their own.
And as far as 25+'s list. I see several areas where it differs from "God's list" I don't think the Bible talks about church credit cards.
I will not longer respond to any posts about this list though. All I will say is that I would not go to any church where 25+ was in charge.
- Tim said...
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bepatient,
Just a random thought.
I have not found electricity mentioned anywhere in the Bible.
Another thought that I would like to present, you stated that you would not go to any church where 25+ was in charge. Could I ask why?
What would bring you to that conclusion?
- Bepatient said...
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Tim said:
I have not found electricity mentioned anywhere in the Bible.
Another thought that I would like to present, you stated that you would not go to any church where 25+ was in charge. Could I ask why?
What would bring you to that conclusion?
I believe that God has already given us an outline of what the church should be.
And my views on 25+ and whether or not I would go to his church are my own. I am not saying he is a bad person or it would be a bad church. Simply that what he is describing is not the type of place I would want to go.
- Bepatient said...
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Thank you David. I really do appreciate that!
1. I am not going to compare us to Jesus. We are supposed to me more like him, but his judgment was perfect and ours is not. So I think we need to be careful that our "righteous" anger is not intertwined with our "human" anger.
2. My problem with the list is this- this is a list about SG and the administration. There is nothing positive on the list and it assumes the worst. There is not one reason we can't have church credit cards unless you are assuming people will misuse them. I have used one before. I used it responsibly. I wasn't in a position to be reimbursed.
I agree there are changes that need to be made in our church. But they needed to be changed long before now. I will be happy to work on a list of changes, but not this one.
And I hope you know that I did not mean that I didn't think God would be in charge of the church. That seems to be putting words in my mouth. Some human person has to be in "charge" of the church operations.
- Tim said...
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bepatient said...
I believe that God has already given us an outline of what the church should be.
Reply:
You are absolutely correct and it is by the Authority of Scripture that I have become involved with the desire to magnify that point.
The church is currently operated under business principles that would exist in a closely held privately owned corporation. It needs to operate in conjunction with Biblical principles.
25+ list includes many solid Biblical principles. It also magnifies the practices that are currently in place that are not based upon Biblical principles.
If nothing else this list should serve the purpose of bringing us together in the acknowledgement that there is a problem. It should also give us the ability to focus in and define a solution.
The bottom line would be this, either the ideas in the list are Biblical or they are not. If they are Biblical then it should be the goal of every church member to strive to abide in the Biblical principles represented. If they are not, then we should be able to debate and discuss them and revise or remove them as necessary.
Refusing to discuss a solution would indicate in my mind that you are of the opinion that there are no problems. Only you could offer clarification on that and I would sincerely invite your opinions.
- Bepatient said...
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I have never said there are not problems. But when we start a list that is about that and not a catalouge of things SG has been accused of I will be happy to participate.
for example.
I think one area that has always been a problem is the limited access to the pastors office for common members. I can understand how this started, Dr. Rogers would have done nothing but see people if they just let anyone in to talk to him whenever they wanted. But I think there should always have been a clear-cut method for someone to talk to the pastor in a reasonable amount of time. I am not saying it should be a free for all, but there should be a procedure for it.
- Tim said...
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bepatient,
So you are saying that under the heading;
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
You would like to have all seven items removed. But I would surely expect that you would agree that the item itself is Biblical in nature.
Items II and III do not directly address any specifics to Steve Gaines and would be ok in your opinion.
II. Congregational Church governance:
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
- Tim said...
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memphis,
No one is asking for your unconditional agreement. It is a solution that has been presented to address the problems that are apparant at Bellevue. To say that you won't even discuss a solution would indicate that you are not interested in resolve.
- Bepatient said...
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Here are the things I would be willing to address on a new list.
Conflict of interest statements.
Review of the bylaws. Other things fall under this like the business meeting thing.
I don't know that I want them to be like GBCs - I want them to be what is right for BBC.
But really and truly. I don't want to talk about this list. If you or someone wants to start a new list of realistic changes that need to be in place regardless of who our pastor is I will be happy to help. I don't feel that I am qualified to do it.
Tim said...
Memphis, bepatient, heardenuf, 4545,
These are the three points:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
II. Congregational Church governance:
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
Lets start with just those three, which of these need to be revised, debated or removed.
- Tim said...
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bepatient,
So the there are a few items under the Congregational Governance that you believe should be addressed and they are;
Conflict of interest statements.
Review of the bylaws. Other things fall under this like the business meeting thing.
Resolve will ultimately be based on agreement and result in unity or Resolve will ultimately be based in failure to discuss openly and honestly and result in division.
Bepatient said...
#3 can go. It falls under the others.
As far as #1 I think it should be renamed "Pastoral Responsibilities". then you could break it down into accountability and general operations.
Bepatient said...
tim- I would suggest if you are truly interested in working on a list- why do we start another blog specifically for that. I don't think this is something we can sit here and do in a day amidst all the other arguments. We should take it one item at a time and pray and back each thing with scripture.
- Tim said...
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Bepatient said...
tim- I would suggest if you are truly interested in working on a list- why do we start another blog specifically for that. I don't think this is something we can sit here and do in a day amidst all the other arguments. We should take it one item at a time and pray and back each thing with scripture.
Reply:
I agree completely that it cannot be done in a day. This forum however is the place to formulate solutions. The arguments are over problems, solutions will far outweigh arguments. Certainly I would expect that some things would take a great deal of prayer other things I believe we could readily be in agreement on.
So far I believe that we have reached an agreement on theses two items
I. Leadership Accountability to the Congregation:
II. Congregational Church Governance:
It would be my opinon that under item I. it would be appropriate to define the leadership postions specifically.
A. Pastoral Staff
B. Ministerial Staff
c. Staff Employees
D. Deacon Body
E. Church Committees
F. Church Membership
Perhaps I have left something out or something needs to be changed, but it seems to me that since each office is different that each responsibilities should be defined.
Thoughts?
- Bepatient said...
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Tim- I still stand by my feeling we need to discuss it somewhere else. there is too much to weed through here. It is too hard to stay focused. I don't have time to do any more today.
- Tim said...
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It is also just an opinion but I believe that there are two items under III. that need to be kept somewhere.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of signing non-disclosure statements and release of any staff that is currently bound by a prior non-disclosure agreement.
Tim said...
Reply:
I saw the post. Unfortunately, concerning a business meeting we have already been told, "It ain't gonna happen". With that in mind we should still be working toward mutually agreeable solutions.
There are similarities to 25+ list, but I would appreciate cooperation from all and as much agreement as possible. This is what we have agreed thus far. I would hope that this could be developed much further.
I. Leadership Accountability to the Congregation:
A. Pastoral Staff
B. Ministerial Staff
C. Staff Employees
D. Deacon Body
E. Church Committees
F. Church Membership
II. Congregational Church Governance:
It would certainly seem to make more sense to work toward resolve than foster divisions.
25+ original list
This area is the original list by 25+yrs@BBC from NBBCOF.
This area is locked. It is for reference only.
25+yrs@BBC said...
This area is locked. It is for reference only.
25+yrs@BBC said...
Here are a few important changes that would help during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. No church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
The list I posted simply reflects the result of congregational governance in light of the biblical truth of the priesthood of the believer. Providing things honestly in the sight of all men was the hallmark trait of Paul's ministry (Rom. 12:17, KJV).
The list I posted is for the good of the many not the few. Of course, the few currently in power may not like it.
Jesus is the head of the church. Not SG, any other administrator or deacon, or any poster here obviously. His body is the church. He is the High Priest of our confession and we are all priests to God with equal access to God through Him. This is the basis of congregational governance.
If the leadership wants to know what would help to begin the long process needed to restore trust, then they need to take that list seriously. jmo
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